Alice In Wonderland Virtual Roundtable With Artist And Conceptual Designer Dermot Power

I have several things coming up to get you excited for the June 1st release of Alice in Wonderland. Stay tuned for a great book, the Blu-Ray release itself, and more, but for now I have a virtual roundtable with Dermot Power. Artist and concept designer for the film, Dermot shared a lot of his work, and let us in on how many of the ideas came together.

Also in on this event were David Jessen, VP of DVD productions with Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment, and also Jim Davy, producer of the Alice and Wonderland Blu-ray DVD, and they added some interesting information as well. Particularly, the way the Dermot's Oraculum art from the film has been turned into the Blu-Ray menu system.

It was really a fascinating event, and I hope you can share in the experience to some degree. I'll let our host, Mindy Johnson, lead us along.

Mindy Johnson: So Dermot, talk a little bit about, when you first got the call for this film.  And we're going to shift to a couple of your – one of your first images of Alice.  But if you'd like to give us some insight into certainly your work with Tim.

Dermot Power: Yes, I got a call from Tim's assistant, (Derrick).  And I've worked with Tim in the past on "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory," and – but there was a big team of concept artists on that, and I never actually met Tim himself, but he knew my work.

So he sort of asked his assistant to track the guy who did that type of stuff on the other film down, and he wanted to have a chat.  So I went in and had a chat with him.  And yes, so he was quite (led) into the production of "Alice in Wonderland," and was trying to get the design and look of the film you know to match his vision.

And it was a dream come true for me, because I'm a big fan of Tim Burton, and to sit there and have a chat with him, and I'm obviously a big fan of "Alice in Wonderland."  In fact, I've worked on another "Alice in Wonderland" production about 10 years before.  So you know I love – it was a great opportunity.

And the bonus was that, while I was having a chat with Tim, he said, "Well, where do you want to work?"  And he said, you can work here in the editing, where he was, or from home or – and then he said, "But you know – you know Arthur Rackham?"  And I'm like, "Yeah, of course."  Arthur Rackham is the 19th century illustrator of "Alice in Wonderland," and I'm a huge fan of his work.

And Tim was like well, ‘I bought his studio.  So do you want to work in the studio?’  So that was where I ended up working for almost a year.  Tim bought (Arthur Racken)’s studio which just happens to be very near where he lives in London and he set up an office there himself.  And then I was up in the literally in the attic like the artists in the garrot.  Yes, it was great.  It was great opportunity.

Mindy Johnson: We’re looking at one of the early pieces, (Dermot) if you could explain sort of the construct of this - of Alice, as she is first approaching Wonderland.

Dermot: Is the shot where she is running through the woods?

Mindy Johnson: Yes.

Dermot: So that shot I actually one of the very first shots I did.  What I did was I did a very quick sketch for Tim of what I felt the woods should look like.  Have that feel, the feel for them which he really liked.  And then I took distance from an edited sequence so I knew exactly where – I mean Alice is just a figure in a green environment.

And there was nothing in it.  And what was important to me was to have – with all the things that I designed is contrasting forms.  So you know Alice is running straight into the woods on a straight path and crossing her path is this straight tree and then off that you have these very curved shapes that the trees, twisting trees and twisting ferns.

And of course when you work for Tim Burton you attempt to find spires you know and excuses for drawing them everyplace so that was the thinking there.  And very dark and lines…menacing out in the field I wanted to go for.

In fact I did a much more detailed visual of the same shot and when Tim saw it he was like ‘yes, that’s cool’ but you know we don’t – he didn’t need me to do that.  He wanted me to do the quite sort of very impressionistic – I don’t want to say simple, but minimalist illustrations that go to the point and didn’t hide the point of the design and the detail.

I think before I had arrived on the firm there was a lot of beautiful t-frames illustrated by some of the guys like (Dillion Cole) and people like that at Sony.  And I think the problem with that is their’s is so finished and beautiful it’s a little distracting so Tim asked me to come in and just do these quite minimalist, but strong concepts for the shapes and the things that she’d see in Underland.

Mindy Johnson: Great.  Let’s move to the next image of Alice as she is miniaturized.  And can you talk a bit about the combination of incorporating the live action imagery into at artwork.

Dermot: Yes, sure because the sequences were already edited.  So I had kind of the luxury of working on what was going to be the final edited sequences in the film which is very unusual.  Usually that’s because I came in quite late and into the production I had that luxury.

So, again it’s quite simply done.  The painting of the various elements around her but their very, very carefully placed if you know what I mean.  So those dandelion clocks and all these kind of little elements, I tried to place them so that it’s a very kind of pleasing composition.  But again very simply done, not, I think what it is when I design I like to leave a lot of creative input to the person next along the line.

So I prefer to work to that level and then people can put their details and colors and everything in afterwards.  But, let me think about what else I can say about that.  I think next is maybe the Hatter.

Mindy Johnson: Is the Hatter in the concept piece?

Dermot: Yes that’s purely a concept, in that it doesn’t, it’s not taken from any other edit or anything.  It’s just a moment that Tim was trying to think about that hat which was on top of the may pole, in the scene where the Mad Hatter is trying to…it’s like a symbol of what has happened.

I mean that didn’t end up in the film actually.  But it was sort of trying to think about scale of the hat to the Hatter and that’s quite a conversational piece.  I love drawing it to engage in a dialog, conversation with Tim about what he’s thinking about the scene.

Rather than the previous image which was very directly drawn to guide the animators and people afterwards as to where things should be in the sequence.  This is more kind of a discussion piece.

I remember Tim had in mind what he wanted for that sequence where the village is being, Mad Hatters village is being burned out, it was very, very tricky to get what he needed because it needed to be quite minimal.  And I was trying to, I was looking for symbols to put across what had happened.

And the top hat, the Hatter looking under the hat.  I don’t know if you see that little skull under there.  That would have never had made it in a Disney Alice in Wonderland.  Maybe a Tim Burton one but yes, I don’t know what I was thinking there.

Mindy Johnson: Definitely, let’s move to the next piece.  Now you also did some design work on props as well.

Dermot: Yes very little.  I did a couple of different of pieces of props.  My role kind of became whatever Tim would throw at me I would solve it.  So if he needed me to do a prop I would do the prop.  And in fact the dodo, what was quite funny was I did another, maybe I should have sent you that.

I did another exact visual of the dodo carrying the flamingos in the caddy, croquet caddy, and I completely got it wrong.  In that I had it that the pelicans were trying to burst out of the caddy and they were full of energy and they were, and the dodo was like being crushed by the weight of this and he was sweating and it was completely a different take on it.

And Tim came in and he looked at it and just was, because he doesn’t say an awful lot.  And he just went, ohh ahh, like that.  I mean it was completely wrong.   And he just went, no like this, he drew that essentially, I mean I drew that what you’re looking at but he very quickly did a sketch.  What’s wonderful about working for a director who can draw is that he can explain himself, he doesn’t need to say anything he can just do a quick sketch.

Mindy Johnson: Absolutely.

We’re now looking of course at the image with the red queen and the flamingo and the croquet match.

Dermot: It’s more to the left of the flamingo, but the background, it’s just to design all the shapes that would be behind her head.  That’s sort of how I like to design.  I don’t think there’s any confusion in about what that background is, even if it isn’t full of photographic detail.

Mindy Johnson: And moving on to the chambers.

Dermot: Yes, I think Tim wanted the inside of the palace to reflect the crazy kind of shapes and crazy world that you see from outside.  And for inspiration I actually had a researcher dig out as many strange and extraordinary buildings as I could, that I tried to do it myself, I love working with researchers because that way when I’m drawing something else they start digging things out.

And that’s actually very inspired, now I can't remember the name but we might have to dig that out, it’s a hotel that (Gaudi) did.  It has very similar kind of…it’s got that swirling kind of cast ceiling, it’s based on a real thing.

I think Tim wanted everything to look really kind of bonkers and it was really nice to find some actual architecture that was almost as bonkers.  I mean it’s not exactly it, but its inspired by it.  Yes.

Mindy Johnson: Well speaking of architecture that’s inspiring, looking at the next slide, if you talk a bit about this.

Dermot: Yes, again this is part of the sequence where she arrives at the palace and then goes on to the moat of heads.  The real sort of doing this is to put across some of that sort of Tim Burton gothiness.

I wasn’t really design, I didn’t design the palace though.  It had already been done, it was more a case of saying, you know if you guys can find an angle, to give you a flavor of these gothic arches and spiral, that would suit what Tim’s looking for.

You’ve moved on to the red queen looking down at the floating heads?

Mindy Johnson: Yes.

Dermot: Yes.  That’s quite an interesting one because I wasn’t familiar with all of the script and everything that was happening.  I mean I read the script and forgot some of it but when Alice was jumping across the heads I got it wrong.  I thought it was, that she was jumping across giant heads and not that she was tiny.  Which was kind of stupid of me to think that.

So I kept, this sequence, I kept drawing the heads quite big and then Tim would come in and go, yes they need to be a little smaller.  And then I’d keep making them smaller and smaller and smaller and eventually I was like are these supposed to be human sized heads?

Mindy Johnson: Yes.

Dermot: Yes, yes, yes, but because he doesn’t say an awful lot it took me redrawing it, and redrawing it, and redrawing it, but that sequence of her looking in the, down on the moat is, I was really pleased because it’s a lock shot it was almost exactly like that in the film.  That’s what Ken Ralston’s team did, which was amazing there, it’s really beautiful.

The shot where she’s jumping across again that’s a more finished illustration because Tim was going to the San Diego Comic Con and they wanted some artwork to show from the film and so that was a more simple illustration but I kind of tightened up a little bit.  That’s why you’re seeing a rare color one.  So I think the other one was as well where the queen was looking down on the head.

It’s quite important to Tim as well when I’m doing these visuals that I don’t bring it up to a level of detail that’s trying to mimic the film.  Because the film, you don’t want to, I mean for my own personal way of designing I don’t see the point in that, I think designers are trying to inspire and help get to the final vision.

But I’m not so sure you need ever to pretend that the frame is the final shot, film sequence, a shot from the film.  And I think Tim appreciated the fact that I paid a lot of attention to the kind of light and the mist and everything.  You don’t look at that and think oh this is a frame from the film.  It’s still quite painterly, which I think he really likes.

Mindy Johnson: Absolutely.  Let’s move on then to the next shot of the executioner. (which I don't have for you)

Dermot: Yes this was actually part of the…somebody else had done a much wider illustration so I knew the architecture and the heart shaped executions block is from another illustrators work and Tim just asked me to put more stuff into the background.  So I did the illustration of the arches and the high gate with the heart in it and all that kind of difference.  And I redrew the executioner and things like that.

I was trying to get them to change the design of the axe because I thought it was more -- the axe that was in the film it’s heart shaped.  And one of the problems with the hearts shape is it’s a very friendly warm kind of, almost motherly shape, to be Freudian about it.

And the axe I thought didn’t really look threatening enough.  So I wanted a more gothic arch put into it but it was too late.  It had already been built so, and Tim was more than happy with the other one.

Also the little details because that’s where the jubjub bird gets, is released from.  So that would be the reason for doing that.

Mindy Johnson: Nice.  Moving on to a couple of the early Jabberwocky images.

Dermot: They’re actually very late Jabberwocky images, because they already had it done, I think they were well on their way to doing the Jabberwocky.  And I think Tim gets notions and ideas and he just wants to explore them and he said oh have a go, because I think what happened is at one point the Jabberwocky that ends up in the film is mostly, it’s very similar to a dragon, traditional dragon but it doesn’t fly in the film.  And there was decision made at some point by Tim that it wouldn’t fly that it would walk through the woods.  And then he was wondering if he needed to change the design completely.

So, again, to help him think about it, I’ll just do a couple of drawings.  And the one on the left is very much based on the Jabberwocky from John Tenniel’s 18^th century illustration, from the original book.

And I also, when I looked at that illustration, I looked at it as if it was a puppet on strings, if you know what I mean?  So when you look at that, if you imagine what my thinking with this, it should be hanging there as if the loose head and limbs have been held by strings.  That’s the kind of look I was going for.

Also, because every dragon has been done, it’s so difficult to come up with a new one.  I just thought I wouldn’t do a dragon.  I’d just do something completely different.  And the one on the right, again, it’s more like a demon or something.  I think Tim liked them, but then they went with the original design anyway.

So, fun to do, though.  Great fun to do.

Mindy Johnson: Absolutely.  And then, last one for your concept pieces, we do have a few slides of some of the final artwork that, as you mentioned, appeared in the film.

Dermot: Yes.

Mindy Johnson: Can you talk a bit to these?

Dermot: Yes.  During the designing of some of the inside of the palace, I’ve put in a lot of picture frames and then of course they needed to be filled with something.  And Tim was like, ‘well, what are you going to do?’  So I was, ‘oh, I’ll just build scenes and sequences from the original Alice in Wonderland book.’

So that’s the lion and the unicorn and I think represent – I’m trying to get my history right here, but represents the two sides of the British Empire in the 18^th century – 19^th century.  So it was a great excuse for me to just paint some crazy stuff from the originals books.  At that point – I’ve been on the film about eight or nine months and I think Tim trusted me to – you know, he knew I got into his mindset.  I knew what he liked, and I think he trusted me to just kind of risk on these things.

So because they were just going to be a theme in passing in the frames, they didn’t need a lot of art direction from him.  It was kind of like, just do whatever.

And then the mural, and the red-green on the Jabberwocky, that was because when I revised the throne room and the sequence where the Mad Hatter walks in through the doors and is being presented to the queen, the walls looked a little bit grey and dark and dank, and I thought, you know.  So I suggested to Tim, like, I’m going to get the name wrong, but what’s the castle, that palace in Germany?

Mindy Johnson: Neuschwanstein?

Dermot: Yes.  That’s the one.  There are beautiful murals on the walls in that palace, so I said why don’t we do something like that but have it really, really faded, like it’s been up there for years?  And so I did.

And so I painted it, and then the way the tone and colors are laid out, (embossed) on those little corners and all these things, don’t really mean anything, except that when they were in the sequence, it balanced all the little colors out.  So in the red rooms and the blue rooms, it just adds in the shot where you are.

Again, because they were so faded and scrubbed out, you’re just going to get an impression of something being there, these guys are ancestors – very obviously, the one of the left is sort of inspired by (Harvine’s) Henry the Eight.

And, yes, they had the heart motif, wherever we could put it in.  And because it’s something you’re going to see so quickly in the film, of course you can pause the DVD now, but there’s not a huge amount of detail there, but I think it’s just the right amount for a quick little shot.  And even though he’s quite extreme in his anatomy, I mean, he actually is quite similar to – I think King Henry the Eight was probably even bigger and (bolder).

And the one on the right, that was towards the end of the film, I just thought I’m going to go mad here.  I’ll just draw some really crazy shapes and – you know, in the style that I really love to work in and not try to be imitating (inaudible) painter (that kind of thing), just to see what would happen.  And Tim really loved that, so he was like, yes, yes.  The crazier the better, which is probably not surprising as well.

Mindy Johnson: Well, beautiful work.  And I want to move on to your extraordinary work in the Oraculum.  We have a short clip from the film to run, which I think will set the stage for the importance of this particular prop and your design work within it.  I hope everyone’s computers should be cached enough to accept…

(I couldn't get this exact clip, but I'll have several clips for you, including some from the bonus features when I review the Blu-Ray release itself)

Mindy Johnson: OK.  That was a pretty important prop.  An important (McGuffin) in this story.  Talk a little bit Dermot, about how this was approached.  And not only from a design standpoint but in terms of story.

Dermot Power: From the design point theory, I think that a placeholder for the Oraculum with some of the Tenniel illustrations.  And a couple of other bits and pieces, again it was one of those things where I was chatting to Tim about it and I just said well if you want me to I'll bash it and illustrating it I’d love to do it, (I'll have a go).

I think originally we talked about doing it in a kind of John Tenniel style and part of the problem is doing that as illustrations from a book work in the context of the book and it’s weird when you try to ape that style for another thing like the Oraculum.  It didn’t quite work as well.

That’s my excuse for very quickly just doing it the way I like to draw.  So what I did was I said OK this thing is going to end up being a foot and a half or two feet tall by I don’t know maybe 8-10 feet.  It’s going to be huge so.  I’m not sure how much time we have.

So what I did was I started on the sequences that I knew the camera was definitely going to be on.  Obviously where Alice is looking at the Oraculum and the sequence where she’s fighting the Jabberwocky, and the idea was that it should look like an illustrator’s version of events and not an exact copy of it.

Because I could have taken the actual green screen sequences and traced the Oraculum illustrations over it but I think Tim wanted it to look like it was an artist impression.  And so what I did was I did very detailed illustrations of the main part and then for the left and right, because they would end up in the camera, possibly in the camera I then just illustrated whatever.

And again like the, I just randomly picked scenes from the film or characters from the film and just kind of illustrated them in there in a way that, because the viewer in the cinema, in the theater just wants to get an impression that the Oraculum doesn’t stop at that point that you’re looking at.

So it was really enjoyable to do.  And then I think late in the process it was decided that maybe we should have a 3D element that you can separate out the different layers of the scene.  Which meant that the Oraculum took, I don’t know, 3 times longer to do because I then have to cut out Alice and the Dodo and the mushrooms and then put them on a separate layer and illustrate everything behind her.

So there’s layered versions of the Oraculum where you can switch each character off and there’s details in behind.  Which was it was great fun to do that.  Again this film, project gave me a chance to do every kind of art style that an artist is apt to do.

From very chunky paintings and murals to these, I end up doing these very tight line drawings.  It was great fun.  Yes.

Mindy Johnson: A lot of great variety.  It is the Oraculum that’s being utilized as part of the living menus on the upcoming blue ray release of Alice in Wonderland and so we’re going to kind of stroll through these particular images that are broken down, not only of your drawings Dermot but also the screen imagery of the menus and, David perhaps if you could talk just a bit about how these were integrated and utilized in the set up of the Blu-ray.

David Jessen: Well when you enter the Blu-ray this is our other menu system and in the U. S., Mexico and Canada currently we call it our living menu system.  So if you’re BD Live connected what happens is, the very first thing that occurs is that whatever your weather is in your particular climate Dermot was very generous and gracious to design new Oraculum art for us that features whatever that is, either it’s a sunny day, a cloudy day, a rainy day, a snowy day, a clear night, a cloudy night, a rainy night, a snowy night, and the cool thing is that this is new Blue Ray exclusive material that you can get nowhere else.  So it’s pretty cool.

Also, if you're not on BD Live connected the fact that you get to see the Oraculum in its entirety I believe it’s the…

Dermot Power: Pretty much its entirety, yes.

David Jessen: It’s the first opportunity also a person would have to actually see it laid out for them in the menus and have it and own it.

Mindy Johnson: We’re running edited sequences of these various illustrations, Dermot if you could talk a bit about these

Dermot Power: Oh it’s fantastic, I’m just bowled over by what you guys have done, it’s beautiful.  No because its seeing my drawings come to life like that, it’s just fantastic.  Well done that’s beautiful.  All the clarity.

Mindy Johnson: (David) if you can just talk a little bit about as to how this works.  When you turn on your disk.

David Jessen: So when if you’re BD Live connected and you put your disk in, it’s automatically going to pin your local weather through the BD Live system in the States and in Canada and the U. S. and Mexico and it will load these pieces of art and these little animations that we have done.

Like its right here it’s showing that if it’s raining in your climate it’s going to be raining on screen in the Oraculum magically.  And it will depend on whatever it is, if it’s sunny you’ll have a beautiful sunny image, if it’s snowing you'll have some snow.  It’s just a magical way to bring your Blue Ray Disk to life.

(I don't have an animated file to show you, but it was cool in the presentation, and I've seen the disc itself, and it really is a pretty neat feature. Of course, it's been sunny, so...)

Mindy Johnson: OK.

Dermot Power: Looks fantastic.

Mindy Johnson: Two more sequence of these and then Dermot in terms of creating this type of art work, did you have to do anything above and beyond just the standard illustrations?

Dermot Power: I think what you guys have done its fantastic to see it now real, it’s the first time I’m seeing it.  It’s beautifully realized.  The rays of the sun coming out, that’s absolutely perfect.

It was difficult because you didn’t have a defined boarder and for ink drawings, you know if you do cloudy night for example it can be a little difficult just knowing where to border what you’re doing and things like that.  Really it’s just an excuse for me to feel like a traditional book illustrator for a week or so, or a few days.  I really enjoyed doing it.

But yes it’s great to see it being used so, so beautiful.

Mindy Johnson: There’s a sequence of the additional art, Oraculum artwork that is also on the DVD menus.

David Jessen: What’s wonderful is, we at Disney are always trying to find a way to extend the film experience organically and work with the film talent to do that, and I think this is the perfect example of that.

Jim Davy: When we first saw Dermot’s Oraculum art we just thought what a perfect way to have that be the theme for the menus for the whole disk experience.

Dermot Power: Yes that’s great, and to have something made drawn for the film which can be the end of its existence and have another life outside of it is kind of a rare opportunity for me.   To tell you the truth it’s fantastic.

David Jessen: Obviously we don’t have the text on this yet but the menu text would be on the left side there, obviously.  But we wanted to show Dermot’s art.

That's pretty much it, I hope you enjoyed it.

RU?

*all images courtesy of Disney, concept art (obviously) by Dermot Power, all rights reserved and everything is trademarked, and don't steal anything, so on and so forth.

© 2010, Are You Screening?. All rights reserved. Reprinting without express permission of the author is prohibited.

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